Curse

some guy · Feb 26, 2011, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Obviously a lot or some dervish skills/combos are seriously just too strong... Am I seriously the only person feeling this right now? I did not see any threads about dervish balance issues right now.

Good list summed up by LifeInfusion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Considerations, for skills with bar compression:
EDA (blind removal + conjure level armor ignoring damage + blind = 3skills in one)
Grenth's Aura (lifesteal is pressure + heal ... lower life steal?)
Fleeting stability (IMS + 1 anti-KD ... stance?)
Harrier's Haste (IMS+ 10ish damage ... stance?)
Rending Aura PVP (Remove enchantments on KDed is easy ; no damage conversion unlike staggering force/dust cloak = no shield swap ; 6 recharge)
Lyssa's Haste (when used with Grenth's Avatar + Frag ; AOE interrupt ... remove AOE interrupt on demand initial effect)
Onslaught (Primal Rage looks bad since this has a buff rather than a malus ... up recharge and remove adrenaline boost?)
Crippling Sweep (Protector's Strike + hamstring ... 10 recharge?)
Aura of Thorns (AOE cripple makes hamstring/cripslash look bad ... 15 recharge and 10 energy?)

Until 2+ stack removals are everywhere (Strip enchant, rend enchant, chilblains, gaze of contempt, etc) these need to be looked at.

Artisan Archer · Feb 26, 2011, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Grenth's Aura is a real problem. Tis too good imo.

urania · Feb 26, 2011, 09:48 AM // 09:48

lol onslaugh HoF fleeting stability lol

some guy · Feb 26, 2011, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

lol onslaugh HoF fleeting stability lol

IAS + IMS without any real penalties + insane dps/rupts/kds

*lemming* · Feb 26, 2011, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Even after having used it, I still don't know what's so good about Grenth's Aura. You're spending an entire skill slot to make some of your attacks not trigger spirit bond?

On the other hand, Rending Aura (and to a lesser extent, Staggering Force) is ridiculous and does not deserve to exist. It might be a little more in line if both dervish DW attacks didn't cost enchantments.

Artisan Archer · Feb 26, 2011, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Grenth's Aura means you can walk into footmen/knights/entire lordpit and not die, ever. The selfhealing combined with armor ignoring damage is just ridiculous.
You can pump through a flagger in his own lordpit. You can outlive 2 archers, 2 knights, guild lord, bodyguard + cripshot ranger all hitting you. Pretty OP considering the fact NPC's are pretty important for lord damage.

S4br3t00th · Feb 26, 2011, 10:57 AM // 10:57

and the winner is...
Ebon Dust Aura! Mainly in RA, when you have one of these on each team= blind wars. FF necros are now mandatory for streaks... on top of my draw for the Bsurge :/
They could switch the blind & the cure so that you would at least need to bring teardowns and time it...

honorable mentions to grenth avatar+aura (lol shield sets & solo teams), HoF+any flash IMS, Onslaugh, aura of thorns (lol Cripslash), Test of Faith is kinda mean too

Tyris Requiem · Feb 26, 2011, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Tbh most of the dervish skills are quite OP.

Atm EDA, Avatar of Grenth, Grenth's Aura, Onslaught etc etc overshadow alot of the slightly less op stuff.

As soon as these get nerfed though the meta will just shift to a bunch of slightly less OP skills leaving the derv still OP.

cantalus · Feb 26, 2011, 01:00 PM // 13:00

yeah they're OP'd but seems most people are either now running dervs or stopping playing HA, can't see anet doing anything about it, they're obviously not testing much despite their claims

T3AMKILL · Feb 26, 2011, 01:27 PM // 13:27

HA is pretty much full of dervs. every team has 3 or more dervs in them. it's almost unplayable unless you run it too

some guy · Feb 26, 2011, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3AMKILL

HA is pretty much full of dervs. every team has 3 or more dervs in them. it's almost unplayable unless you run it too

Feels like R/A Sway all over again right?

Ariena Najea · Feb 26, 2011, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3AMKILL

HA is pretty much full of dervs. every team has 3 or more dervs in them. it's almost unplayable unless you run it too

Not sure why more groups (even fame farmers) aren't bringing Well of the Profane. Turns out that it makes Dervishes completely useless if you stand inside. The other team can either wait for it to run out... or retreat and let your team recover from all the pressure regardless.

Stop trying to beat the new meta with the same old builds and tactics.

Killed u man · Feb 26, 2011, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Not sure why more groups (even fame farmers) aren't bringing Well of the Profane. Turns out that it makes Dervishes completely useless if you stand inside. The other team can either wait for it to run out... or retreat and let your team recover from all the pressure regardless.

Stop trying to beat the new meta with the same old builds and tactics.

You can use enchantments inside well of the profane. Since every derv enchant has 10 recharge, and for arguements sake the average recharge time on any given enchant will be 5 seconds (as 10/2 = 5), a dervish would be enchantless for 5 seconds by well of the profane, and afterwards be able to paintrain even more bc of balled up people inside that profane.

Ariena Najea · Feb 26, 2011, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

You can use enchantments inside well of the profane. Since every derv enchant has 10 recharge, and for arguements sake the average recharge time on any given enchant will be 5 seconds (as 10/2 = 5), a dervish would be enchantless for 5 seconds by well of the profane, and afterwards be able to paintrain even more bc of balled up people inside that profane.

You kite in and out so they are removed...

MrDark88 · Feb 26, 2011, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Dervishes are like paragons in the sense that they are OP if there are more of them in a party. The Dervish now is, as ArenaNet said, a pressure profession. While I agree that 35-40 lifesteal per hit is pretty strong, people should not cry "nerf" just because their "balanced" team can't handle a certain situation. I'm happy at least that the Dervish is seeing some PvP "light", since I was tired of seeing mirror "balanced" matches in observer mode.

Killed u man · Feb 26, 2011, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Well, I'm definatly happy the Dervish sees light, because this prooves the idea behind flash enchantment works. Now it simply comes down to modding numbers so that Dervishes don't completely outclass every other frontliner (Which they do).

As for the kiting in and out of profane:

Do you have much PvP experience?

Anyone with some PvP experience knows this simply isn't a plausible solution. For starters: Flash Enchants usually benefit ending, so "kiting in and out of a profane" doesn't mean Dervishes don't do damage all of a sudden. (I think you're under the illusion they do 0 dmg without enchantments) Their IAS is a stance, and a scythe still pumps big numbers, and if you have 8 people running in and out of such a small area, you can be sure you're going to hit multiple people alot.

Even then, where is the Profane comming from? There needs to be a body first before you can start pumping profanes, and with Dervway, the first body (not including ghostlies) is usually on the non-dervway team meaning a wipe anyways.

Also, the 5 derv team is, in fact, not impossible to beat. It's a gimmick build which can be countered by tons of skills. (Ward v Melee does a really good job, aswell as an earth ele in general) Only the unranked to r9+ teams run this teambuild (Because it's easier to form than the more OP variant, or they simply don't know any better).

The real issue, as usual, is hexes combined with dervishes. When you got 2 esurges (or any combination of dom mesmers), 2 dervs pumping a redicilous amount of conditions and pressure and then 2 eles or a necro and a rit, there isn't a whole lot you can do...

The dual mes/sin way was pretty overpowered for the redicilous easyness to play it BEFORE the derv update. Now, they replaced both the sin bars (which were redicilously overpowered) with 2 derv bars which do more damage, have more utlity AND are easier to play. (Even easier than a sin? Yes

)

Frankly, I don't really give a rat's ass about HA anymore, ever since every clown managed to get a phoenix despite being completely inexperienced in PvP and still really bad (cough all the IWAY/bbsway/hexway guilds), but it doesn't take an experience PvP'er to realize how overpowered these builds are...

urania · Feb 26, 2011, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrDark88

Dervishes are like paragons in the sense that they are OP if there are more of them in a party. The Dervish now is, as ArenaNet said, a pressure profession. While I agree that 35-40 lifesteal per hit is pretty strong, people should not cry "nerf" just because their "balanced" team can't handle a certain situation. I'm happy at least that the Dervish is seeing some PvP "light", since I was tired of seeing mirror "balanced" matches in observer mode.

just like paragons, enraged lunge (in TA), fear me warrs in the old days, they only see some (mass) PvP light when they're broken in one way or the other, and that is in itself a passive request for a nerf.
sure, some skills are good and not broken. but some are just too good and hence often broken (admittedly, there has been more to that than dervs alone).

Apok · Feb 26, 2011, 05:06 PM // 17:06

From the amount of meta builds already generating from this update (Grenth Fragspike, EDA Linebackers, GA train, Lyssa train), we need to target the skills that fuel these skills. Maybe we can go back to posting skill change suggestions?

For an example, I believe all the avatars should have a longer recharge (20 seconds) and shorter disable time (30 seconds) in order to make interrupts more useful.

Grenth's Aura is definitely a problem, maybe change it to dark damage instead of lifesteal (like a dark conjure weapon, but keeping the -damage debuff) so that they are not as tanky but it is still useful.

Avatar of Grenth, however, is actually fine. The reason they are more popular is do to it's synergy with fragility and lifestealing making them tankier, especially with the armor buffs they get.

Mysticism NEEDS to get rid of the +armor buff. Maybe give them a +% enchantment duration buff (or leave with just the enchantment expertise, that's fine enough).

Heart of Fury, I'd like it to only effect scythes. That's it, really. Same with Onslaught.

Ebon Dust Aura is way too good for what it does. As someone suggested, simply switch the initial with the end effect.

Rending Aura, again, needs to only effect scythes and/or end after two enchantments are stripped.

Crippling Sweep, I don't even know how that got through testing. 10s recharge would at least make it on par with Bull's Strike.

Aura Slicer, 6-7 adrenaline cost (Bleeding with Cracked armor is potent)

Harrier's Haste, this one is easy, just give it a longer recharge (15-20 seconds) What it does outclasses a lot of IMS skills.

As much as I like seeing it in the game again, Dervishes should not outclass every other melee profession. While I like that they nerfed the Derv's spike capabilities, their pressure capabilities need to take the same hit.

Missing HB · Feb 26, 2011, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Avatar of grenth will for sure get nerfed when you just look at GvG mat at the moment. 95% guilds are actually bringing in dervishs ( blind spammer included) , looks like we said bye bye to warriors or sins...

FoxBat · Feb 26, 2011, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Simplest EDA fix is to make it scythe-only, along with possibly switching initial and end effect. If that's not enough, drop some of the damage. It'll still be a blindathon, but the damage hit ought to make it more questionable in high-level play.

The only other build I ever see is Grenth's Avatar so I don't see how that can escape a nerf.

With the dearth of other elites running around, hitting these two harder is more important than tweaking all the nonelites. (Not that they don't need some tweaks, e.g. grenth's, harriers) Even the HA 5+ derv teams are all grenths with the occasional EDA. With that kind of monolithic setup, these aren't just slightly but vastly better than all other elite options, and pulling them down alone will greatly diminish dervish power. Both elites (not to mention grenths/harriers) essentially giving +damage buffs have much to do with that, and they'd be more interesting and more in-line options if the damage was hit rather than the side effects.